Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/08/1998 03:45 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
April 8, 1998
3:45 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Bert Sharp
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator John Torgerson
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Lyda Green, Vice Chairman
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Confirmation Hearings:
Board of Fisheries
Dr. John R. White - Bethel
Russell S. Nelson - Dillingham
Board of Game
Eric Williamson - Anchorage
Walter Sampson - Kotzebue
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-27, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 3:45 p.m. and invited Dr. John White to make a statement.
DR. JOHN WHITE, Board of Fisheries, said they deal with five basic
issues: conservation problems, Bristol Bay king crab, Southeast
abalone issues, and Norton Sound chum salmon involving the possible
Tier II of fisheries. He thought the cod fishery in the Gulf of
Alaska is an outstanding developed fishery issue which the Board
has tackled. Many parties on the North Pacific Council didn't
think the Board should be involved in creating cod fisheries the
way they did. They now have a very good working relationship with
the Council to tackle the on-going issues in that fishery. He also
sees development of the open pound fishery in Sitka which has been
an experimental fishery to date. They have addressed allocation
issues which are very contentious and have done the very best they
could with those, especially the Copper River and Prince William
Sound gillnet fishery involving the red and king salmon fisheries
and the Southeast sport and commercial king salmon fisheries which
have been very contentious. The Board is trying to find objective
assessment tools and reporting requirements on statewide salmon
stock status for the sustainable fisheries project. The Board
would also like to see some movement from departmental policy to
regulate or a statute so users of the salmon resources have a more
level field of play when it comes to understanding the
underpinnings of regulatory development in salmon fisheries in this
state. This project needs to get its arms around the need for
defining critical terminology that exists in regulatory
promulgation, like definitions for yields and depressed stocks
which would help level the playing field for those interested in
the allocation, development, and conservation of these resources.
The Board has used a committee system to relate to the public and
it has been well received. The purpose of the system is to get the
optimal amount of input they can and provide an opportunity for
resolving issues at the meetings between contentious parties and
being able to get resolutions before the Board deliberates. When
they receive criticism, the Board tries to adjust its course when
it sees legitimate problems.
In summary, he said he is proud to be a member of the Board of
Fisheries which looks problems straight in the eye. They try to
fix problems as quickly and judiciously as they can.
Number 167
SENATOR SHARP said there has been concern about the large take at
the mouth of the Copper River necessitating closure of the personal
and subsistence fisheries upstream on quite a few days during the
seasons. He didn't recall if the fixed amount was in statute or
regulation, but he asked how they solve the problem when there are
10,000 permitted Alaskans using the fishery and they have to be an
Alaskan before they qualify to get the personal use or subsistence
permit, to get some kind of an even break on the record runs that
have been occurring on that river for the last two consecutive
years. He asked if the Board was taking any action to try and get
a fair allocation and if this is a statutory fix, shall the
legislature get involved in raising the allocation.
DR. WHITE answered get more and better science. One of the major
holdups the Board had addressing that issue the last time was the
paucity of good science on king salmon stocks there and what the
possible by-catch of both fisheries were. The Board left a
specific charge with the participants of both of those fisheries
that they would continue the work group that had formed to continue
to evaluate that problem and specifically address the needed
science to resolve some of the underlying questions there.
SENATOR SHARP added that the Board or the Department took action
and reduced the amount of king salmon that could be caught by the
personal use fishery from five to four and he didn't know if there
was any restriction on the commercial fisheries, although he knew
they caught the largest amount ever this past year.
SENATOR LEMAN said he was concerned that when the Board announces
schedules for hearings in a certain sequence and then it seems to
hold hearings out of sequence on fairly short notice and asked if
that was going to be a policy of the Board to do that. Someone
from the industry said he thought the best thing to do would be if
the Board took a break for two or three years and let things take
their course. He wondered if all the users were hurt in our zeal
to resolve things.
DR. WHITE said there is criteria in statute that the Board uses to
address issues that are out of cycle. About the notice he said
that it is important to have adequate legal notice (30 days) and
practical notice given the great dispersion of people in our state.
Complicating that problem is the human resources of the Board
members. He assured him that he tries to pay good attention to
practical notice on matters and will in the future. He also
respects the human resources of the Board and staff which is a
constant balancing act.
SENATOR LEMAN said that the current makeup of the Board has a void
from the Gulf of Alaska, Unimak Pass to Cape Fairweather and with
his and Russel Nelson's appointment, they weren't really addressing
that.
DR. WHITE said he agreed, but he gets hammered on because there
isn't adequate subsistence representation or enough geographic
distribution, etc. He said the hardest criteria to meet as a
member of the Board is fairness as well as the ability to be
educable, to be a good listener, to act in the best possible way
for the resource, and to use the human resources that are
available.
SENATOR LEMAN expressed concern from people at Kodiak on residents
and nonresidents limits on sportfishing.
DR. WHITE responded that they have accepted a petition that
addresses the possible question of unmet harvest opportunity on
those stocks. They are sending a committee to Kodiak to hear
community concerns about that and with adequate public notice, the
Board will convene to hear the specific petition.
SENATOR TORGERSON read a letter about the advisory committee
process from an advisory committee. It says Dr. White has shown a
complete lack of regard for the Board of Fish process and a
complete disregard for public and advisory committee participation
in the process. He said he understood that Dr. White set up another
subcommittee, most of the time made up of one person, and that
person brings the testimony back to the full Board. They would
like to testify in front of the full Board and not just one member
of it.
DR. WHITE responded that there is rarely a subcommittee of one
person. There was only one he could think of when he dealt with
shark fishing. Generally, there are three, sometimes, two,
committee members who are appointed by the chair. There is
opportunity for any Board member to object and everywhere he goes
he gives the public opportunity to object to the structure. If
they do object, they adjust to those objections until there is
satisfaction with the broadest sweep of representation for the
committee structure. The purpose of the committee structure is to
broaden the amount of public input and give the stakeholders an
opportunity to work together at the meeting to find consensus that
they can bring to the Board for consideration. It is expansion of
the process.
He said they would look at the advisory committee process at the
end of the year and establish operating procedures which would be
reviewed by the public. The committee reports are never considered
as the pro forma stance of the Board.
SENATOR TORGERSON asked how they are going to review the advisory
process.
DR. WHITE said the Board would take this up in late spring/early
summer and forward their considerations to the advisory committees
and other interested public people.
SENATOR TORGERSON said as a resident of the Kenai Peninsula, he was
less than thrilled with his first decision not to have the Board
meeting in Soldotna or Kenai because of fear for the safety of the
Board. He was glad he changed his mind, but he wasn't sure that
wasn't because of pressure from other entities.
Number 404
SENATOR LINCOLN said there was a letter concerning how they handled
a project with sustainable fisheries. The debate was around the
Board setting the hatchery production levels.
DR. WHITE said in brief, they needed to get something to the table
for people to comment on. They have done that and have received
both criticism and praise. The results of the revisions that have
been made will be forthcoming in the next few weeks. One of the
most important things about the hatchery issue is that it shows the
due deliberation the Board takes. The initial proposal came from
Kethcikan requesting the Board to tell the hatcheries to reduce
their production because of its effect on wild runs in other parts
of the State. The Board members most intimately involved
deliberated and the first thing that was agreed on was that the
Board had to get a clear understanding of what their regulatory and
statutory authorities were from the Department of Law.
It's never been out of sequence; it's been tabled so the Board
could be as thorough as possible in addressing this issue if it
decides to take the original proposal off the table.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked which community wanted them to cut back on
hatchery production.
DR. WHITE answered that he's not certain which community it was; it
was a smaller village.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if because of that they launched into the
whole question of who has the authority to regulate hatchery
production.
DR. WHITE explained that that proposal was a vehicle for an
enormous amount of concern that came to them from other parties
westward and the AYK region, and some processing concerns in
Southcentral areas.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he thought hatchery production and allocation
was taken care of and wasn't left up to the Board to do.
DR. WHITE responded when the Board looked at authorities, it was
confusing, which is why they asked for clarification.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he thought it came from a regional planning
team within ADF&G which has been in place for twenty years. He
said he's confused about why the Board is involved.
He said they used to consider the plans themselves, but they quit
doing it in the 80's.
SENATOR TAYLOR said the Cordova Fishermen's Union and the United
Cook Inlet Drift Association opposed his appointment. He asked
what was controversial about the contractors employed by the Board
as mentioned by the Cook Inlet Drift Association.
DR. WHITE answered that some people didn't like the contractor who
was selected and they didn't represent the broadest sweep of issues
that was brought before the Board.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if that was true.
DR. WHITE answered that he didn't think it was true and that they
are professionals whose work demonstrated that.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked who the people were.
DR. WHITE said they are Mr. Krasnowski and Dr. Phil Mundy.
Number 526
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the sustainable yield fisheries proposal
was about the Cook Inlet.
DR. WHITE answered that it wasn't targeted on Cook Inlet at all.
It was targeted statewide to get objective criteria for salmon
stock status management performance.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that the word "sustainable" worried him because
it sounds like someone is trying to set up a project that keeps us
at today's level of harvest. He asked if it was supposed to lock
us in with the numbers we have today.
DR. WHITE answered not at all; if we clearly understand our stock
status and manage our fisheries, at many junctures there will be
more harvest, not less. He said the Board has a tendency to err
conservatively, and the migratory king salmon in his area resulted
in more harvest than less.
SENATOR TAYLOR said it was too bad they couldn't do that on lower
Cook Inlet.
MR. RUSSELL NELSON, Board of Fisheries, said he is supportive of
the Board process and if appointed to this position, he will work
hard for the conservation and development of fishery resources. He
understands the time and commitment involved with being on the
Board and his resume' shows he has the experience for the position.
He has the support of his family and enjoys traveling and meeting
people. He would be as fair as possible.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she appreciated his comment about asking is
family about his commitment.
SENATOR TAYLOR commented that he liked seeing Harvey Samuelson
backing him and didn't see any objections in his file. He thanked
him for taking the time to serve.
Number 571
MR. ERIC WILLIAMSON, Board of Game, reviewed his resume' and said
he would be honored to serve on the Board. He brings the
commercial perspective to the Board of Game that has been missing
in recent years. He recognized a monetary and cultural value to
wildlife and intact habitat which is Alaska's treasure. His many
times in bush Alaska have given him the perspective of bush
residents and potential conflicts with other wildlife users and
government agencies. He thought the Board of Game's concern was
conservation of wildlife populations. The strength of the process
is accessibility of public input combined with scientific data to
make workable decisions.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how he would characterize the word "abundance"
in his objective and vision context.
TAPE 98-27, SIDE B
MR. WILLIAMSON said that abundance would mean a maximum sustained
yield of game populations.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he saw that as a good thing or a bad thing
within his definition of conservation.
MR. WILLIAMSON answered that he saw that as a good thing in most
instances, particularly in cases where game populations have a high
demand from human users.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked to explain his concern over diminishing
opportunities and the bleak future that many people predict for the
honorable lifestyle of hunting.
MR. WILLIAMSON said he was speaking with a world wide perspective
on that and that the human population is growing everywhere and
human development is encroaching on wildlife habitat. In many
cases, that diminishes hunting opportunity. There is also public
sentiment which is swaying against hunting as a lifestyle. He
wanted hunters to maintain an image of high standards of conduct to
improve their image.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if the diminishment of opportunity was
reflected in some of our diminishing game populations.
MR. WILLIAMSON said it was and that the amount of habitat is
extremely important to hunting opportunity as well as the amount of
game that is out there.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if that would require some management of the
habitat.
MR. WILLIAMSON said it would.
SENATOR TAYLOR also noted as a member of ARDA that he helped draft
the wolf management policy and asked if that was the one they are
neutering male wolves under.
MR. WILLIAMSON explained it was a wolf control program initiated by
Governor Hickel. He said there was a boycott that was affecting
small Alaskan businesses and they tried to mitigate an imminent
wolf control program and what it was going to do to their
membership.
SENATOR TAYLOR said that was wolf control policy that would not
lose bookings at his lodge.
MR. WILLIAMSON explained that he was representing a statewide
organization of 250 businesses with the objective of fairly
representing them and that's what he did. He said they were small
businesses with small profit margins.
SENATOR TAYLOR said as a consequence, they came up with a wolf
management policy.
MR. WILLIAMSON explained that they came up with a policy concerning
the State proposed management plan.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what the policy was.
MR. WILLIAMSON said they supported the plan that was put out by the
ADF&G. At the time, they couldn't support aerial control of
wolves.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he actively supported the initiative.
MR. WILLIAMSON said no, he was instrumental in keeping ARDA out of
that. He thought it was necessary for wildlife management to be
done; he could not support aerial control of wolves, but he thought
Senator Taylor meant the ballot initiative for same day airborne
hunting.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he was mixing those two things together and
apologized. He asked if he personally could support aerial control
of wolves.
MR. WILLIAMSON said he could in certain instances. If it was a
predator pit situation and the prey species are in jeopardy, he
would, but he felt that was behind them because of the political
climate.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked why.
MR. WILLIAMSON said he thought that aerial wolf control was behind
them and would require legislative action to implement.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he thought the Board had authority to grant
that in a given area.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he approved of the Governor sending
$380,000 to the American Academy of Sciences to do a peer review on
our wolf policy.
MR. WILLIAMSON said yes, it was a difficult situation.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if he knew where the money came from that paid
for it.
MR. WILLIAMSON asked if it came out of PR funds.
SENATOR TAYLOR said it came out of an $800,000 line item set aside
by the legislature for intensive game management, so that someone
could go kill some of those wolves. He asked how much longer he
thought we should wait for the Academy of Sciences to give us a
decision or was the whole purpose to slow roll the question, so we
can be politically correct for the next five years.
MR. WILLIAMSON said he thought the report was nearing a close or is
done, but he hadn't a chance to read it thoroughly. It appears
that we are in the same situation and the criteria for deciding
wolf control remains similar to what it was before.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he agreed with him that he didn't think any
decisions had been made on wolves.
Number 441
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how long he had been a resident of the State
of Alaska.
MR. WILLIAMSON answered since 1984.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked who the guides were that he worked for his
apprenticeship and who does he work for now.
MR. WILLIAMSON said he worked for Jim Bailey at his lodge in the
Talkeetna Mountains and Kodiak, Richard Guthrie in Cold Bay, David
Baker near Chignik, and Vern Humboldt at Rainy Pass.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he would support the limitation of use of
all terrain vehicles in game management unit 13 and under what
conditions.
MR. WILLIAMSON said he listened to a lot of the testimony at the
Board of Game's meeting regarding ORVs and he knows there are a lot
of them that go into the wilderness. It sounded like there was
overwhelming evidence against limiting ORVs and as a Board member,
he would have to weigh that testimony unless there was a habitat or
biological problem.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if he would support the elimination of the
use of snares for trapping.
MR. WILLIAMSON said no, the Board was unanimous on that.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked how he voted in the last wolf initiative.
MR. WILLIAMSON said he voted against the same day airborne issue,
because he didn't think that was a proper place for wildlife
management in the first place. He was part of the advisory
committee's subcommittee that came up with stipulations regarding
same day airborne to be at least a quarter mile away from the
airplane in order to make it seem a little more like fair chase.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if unit 13 was a wilderness area.
MR. WILLIAMSON said it seems like that at times and he doubted that
the ORVs could get in to some areas. He is concerned with the
increased use of ORVs in this area, however the prospect of them
being limited is not as imminent as they supposed.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked him for his testimony.
MR. WALTER SAMPSON, Board of Game, thanked members of the Resources
Committee for giving him the opportunity to testify on his
reappointment. It has been interesting for him, coming from a
subsistence lifestyle and getting into the bureaucratic type of
system. He thought regional meetings had given the public an
opportunity to be part of a process and the Board has been able to
go to areas they had never visited before. It gave people a way to
vent their frustrations, because they had been unable to attend
other Board of Game meetings because of cost and other factors.
One area he has been reinforcing is the public process.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD thanked him for his testimony and for his
willingness to serve.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to send the standard letter to the body as a
whole. There were no objections and it was so ordered.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD adjourned the meeting at 5:00 p.m.
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